Biden won on KNOWLEDGE. When Biden explained the importance of having support from other countries before taking military action, Ryan had the doe-in-the-headlights look. Ryan had no response of course, he hadn't thought of that.

And there my friends is what the Romney-Ryan ticket is about. They haven't thought through a LOT of their ideas.

if your strategy is not lo let the other party talk, or show how good your dentist is while the other party talks, of course Biden wins. But in class and clarity -- something we would like from all our politicians-- it was Ryan's. Your comment definitely shows mch more about you!

biden shut down biden the way his cohorts have shutdown buildings in dc. obama dolls money to the unions, so that unions can hire non-union homeless folks to picket/protest at the doorsteps of numerous buildings that my client owns since they due not enlist union labor on the new construction or rehab work. i was always indifferent towards biden prior to the debate and new little about ryan. what i can say is that biden is one of the most unprofessional persons i have ever experienced. he talks about BB like he is a close friend while israel hates biden/obama and have been very vocal about america ousting them from their current positions. i can only imagine after the debate that the entire middle east is now convinced that obama is a bigger twerp than they knew and biden is a babbling lunatic. i was disappointed in ryan, but had little expectation. i would love to see all of bidens phone records to back-up his accounts. one thing i thought was funny, ryan commented that his hometown in scranton pa has a current unemployment rate of over 10% and was significantly less (less than 5%) prior to obama taking over in 2008. biden dismissed the entire situation and said it wasn't typical, which was very common to those who want and need to work in the town. there was so much party line skewed information thrown out on both sides that my eyes were rolling. you can try and fact check all you want, but they can both distort the truth with the best of them.

Biden knows his stuff. It was clear in the debate that he was speaking from his deep knowledge that's been built up through decades of public service. He's a smart guy and he says what he means. I find that endearing. Ryan just prattled off his memorized talking points and lied through his teeth. Ryan is an empty suit. Biden has substance.

Agreed.

I don't like Obama as a person. I don't like his policies. But Joe is a like-able guy. That came across. Its been said ad nauseum, but Joe is like your crazy uncle who is successful, cool, off the wall, a lot of fun, and you love him for that. Joe's also been around long enough that most of us know where he stands. He's fairly centrist and is a bit of a hawk, like Hillary.

Ryan came off as exceedingly competent. He's a policy wonk. He got a little wonky at times. But thats fine. Far better than Sara "I can see Russia from my house" Palin. Ryan showed that if Romney is elected, he's got the stuff to step up. He looks young but he uses adult words. ha.

I thought it was a draw, or very slight Biden win. Either is a win for the Obama ticket who needed to stop the death spiral that BHO started with his debate performance.

BHO has been a disaster for this country, but he is not a stupid person. Look to him to come out all "emotional" and alpha doggy. What will be interesting is how team Romney plans to counter this predictable adjustment by BHO. If they both come out swinging, I'm wondering if the 3rd debate will include pistols at 20 paces.

Donald Mei, do you often confuse Saturday Night Live comedy actors for the actual politicians of whom they are acting out parodies? Don't worry too much, you're not the only one. There are millions and millions out there who are just as shallow and ignorant of the facts as you. You can score a point here, though, if you correct your mistake by telling me the name of the comedienne who really said "I can see Russia from my house," and also prove to me that you can learn what Palin actually said.

Agreed!

Excellent description and summary, Paul! I totally agree!

wasn't that Bill Maher? :)

April, really? I am curious if you had an equal distaste for your own party when Pelosi told the American people "so we have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it" when they shove the health care bill down the nation's throat?

While you may like that idea, it's also not true. We don't need support from other nations before taking military action. We don't need foreign powers approving our right to defend our interests. No nation does.

Wait. You are saying that Ryan is sleazier than Charlie Rangle, Laughable.

Donald, Rangle is not sleazy! Unlike Ryan, Rangle never faced series of allegations of ethics violations and failures to comply with tax laws...oh wait! My bad! :D

Rep. Ryan said last night that Rep. Wyden supports the RomneyRyan medicare plan. Rep. Wyden said that is not true. The Ryan/Wyden whitepaper on medicare is not the same as the Romney/Ryan plan. Wyden says their plan raises the age of eligibility and repeals the ACA, leaving millions of seniors without coverage. Wyden says their plan pulls the safety net out from under the poorest and most vulnerable seniors.

Biden certainly was not unlike the liberal posters here. If they can't shout you down, or chase you away with rudeness they will lie through their teeth. Why is that?

@David - "If they can't shout you down, or chase you away with rudeness they will lie through their teeth. Why is that?" We learned it from the best teachers of all: The Romney/Ryan ticket. It's breathtaking how adept at lying these two are. Funny how you thought Biden was rude but it was completely okay how Romney interrupted throughout the entire presidential debate? Romney was every bit as rude, but instead of providing actual facts like Biden, he lied at every opportunity and flip-flopped on every possible position known to man.

David,clearly you haven't been on Patch for long. The conservative posters do the same thing that you accuse liberals of doing! There is often no real conversation and very little civility.

Biden would be an improvement. At least he's not an ideological socialist with massive animosity towards the bulk of this country's citizens.

I'd prefer Gary Johnson, but Mitt is a hold your nose and vote 2nd choice.

Don't be so scared. It is going to be okay. (as long as, we the people, invest in clean, renewable energy, educating ourselves, and fix our infrastructure). If we could also add to that outreach to the rest of the world with education. Peace begins with knowledge. We have so many smart people, our younger generation will get past our differences.

In my progressive view of the world, I believe the future will be brightest with a government, by the people, and one that invests in the huge items, with industry and corporations as partners. That is where so many fantastic feats were done. Internet, GPS, etc. Create public platforms, like broadband, and allow the private sector to improve and innovate upon them.
Please don't be so scared, and don't try to scare people into their thinking. Come from a place of kindness.

"He is a heartbeat away from being president; scary." That thought makes me appreciate Obama's personal good health. He quit smoking (guessing at least) and is active. Even though I want Obama to have a new job in Nov., if he does win, I hope he continues his healthy lifestyle...because that grumpy old man with his finger on "the button" is some scary sh**!

Hear, hear, on the part about comments being polarizing rather than enlightening.
Be kind to one another. Don't be so scared, and don't try to scare others.

DJ what is your evidence that Joe Biden is a drunk?

Also Ryan beat Biden in the CNN Poll measurement on being likeable by 10 points! Not surprising given Biden's extreme rudeness, arrogant and inappropriate laughter.

Carol, I refer you to Biden's demeanor in every single appearance and speech of his career.

DJ, he didn't look drunk to me and never has. More evidence please.

Joe Biden acts drunk even when he's sober.

No one has provided concrete evidence that Biden is a drunk. Unsubstantiated allegations.

We can certainly attribute being a drunk to ole Ted "Chappaquiddick" Kennedy, just ask the Kopechne family on that one.

Mike, it's true about Kennedy but he's not the one in question here. Biden is.

Even with all of the fancy 24 hour cable channels, the web, network news, books, magazines available at our finger tips, we still have a lousy voter turnout and scores of uninformed voters out there-which stinks...but at least the opposite if reflected on these discussions. I was just thinking about that Howard Stern street interview from a few weeks ago, that's where my context comes from.

Carol, I suppose you'd categorize Biden's demeanor as sober? Even the mainstream liberal pundits like Tom Brokaw and Piers Morgan are saying Biden came across like a an obnoxious drunk. Sobriety is a state of mind, and Ryan has it. Biden does not.

Not much opportunity for that? Biden started off the debate by directly contradicting the State Dept.'s testimony about the Benghazi Consulate requesting additional security! There was plenty of opportunity for Ryan to correct Biden's 'misstatements', but he's too polite to continually interrupt the VP. Biden came across as rude and condescending, in my opinion.

Hi Cheryl, Once DJ is on a thread, any chance at civil discourse is lost. You know his rules: whatever he says is right, whatever we say is wrong. He posts links to right-wing website such as The Daily Caller that has such important articles as how GOP women politicians are hotter than liberal women politicians. And to add further insult, he ends nearly every retort with "why can't you get that?" DJ, we either don't understand your rants or we disagree with them, pure and simple. You are not the be-all, end-all that you think you are.

Carol, I have never once posted anything about the comparative hotness of women in the respective parties. Why don't you try to post something like an attempt at factual rebuttal of what I've said? Why don't you try to defend Biden's audacious lying and hyper-obnoxious, disrespectful buffoonery during the debate? The whole country saw it and the consensus is clear on it. What do you have to say about the substance of what I've posted? Libya is geographically ten times the size of Syria, and Biden repeatedly insisted that Syria is geographically 5 times the size of Libya, as a way to try to make the argument that our priorities have something to do with such a fiction. What do you have to say about Biden's bald-faced misrepresentation of the Benghazi situation, all aspects of it, and of his blatant lying about how he voted on Afghanistan and Iraq? Come on, now. Try to put some meat on your vapors. I dare you.

You act as if I have some kind of moral obligation to pretend that lies are equal in merit to truth, and to "let others be right sometimes" regardless of whether they actually post accurately.

DJ I never said you posted anything about hot politicians, I said it was an article in the Daily Caller. You have no obligation to pretend lies are equal in merit but you fail to understand that to many of us, your postings are lies. As for Biden, I thought he did very well in the debate and his answers on abortion, Medicare, taxes, protections for the middle class were sound and well presented. For one, I can't back a candidate whose VP pick co-sponsored legislation with Todd Aiken. For another, I think Romney is not to be trusted as he shifts his positions as often as he changes his socks. For a third, I can't support a party that swears allegiance to Grover Norquist rather than the country. I like and support Obama, you don't. That's life in a democracy. You will never sway me to your side, nor will I do the same to you. But I think your posts are insulting and derogatory, rather than helpful or factual, since you seem to get your facts from Limbaugh, Fox News, and right wing blogs.

Carol, many right-wing sites feature humorous graphics and side-postings (and I'm quite familiar with those comparing the relative "hotness" of women in the two parties), but The Daily Caller, actually, breaks serious news stories as the substance of its content. If you saw anything along the lines of the hot women thing you brought up, it was NOT an "important article" contained there, as you allege--it would have been some kind of gag graphic posted by a commenter or an advertisement for T-shirts or something. If you can provide a link that proves me wrong, I will here acknowledge that I am wrong on it. The Daily Caller has many important articles, and is doing the job of real expose journalism that CNN and the NYT are loathe to do.

As far as the rest of our discussion, why don't you address Biden's many lies in the debate? It is glaringly obvious that you are avoiding talking about what I have brought up. Syria's size compared to Libya, for one. What do you have to say about Biden's shameless gross distortion/inversion as an integral part of his argument there? No mere gaffe, that. Why can't you mount a defense of your candidate based on the specific substance of what I have pointed out, the lies about intelligence, the lies about his votes? An honest person would not merely evade.

Carol, you said that to you and some others, what I post are lies--okay, then, prove to me and to everyone that I lied about any of what I just said. What I described coming out of Biden's mouth are matters not of mere opinion, but of easily verifiable material fact or falsehood. I provided a link proving the geographic sizes of Libya v. Syria, for example, and Biden's votes are a matter of record, as are the intelligence reports/information and security requests surrounding the Benghazi attack, and multiple statements coming out of the State Department and other top official military and intel sources which flatly contradict Biden. Why won't you address all this, and admit the truth?

Here's video of Biden bombastically lying about the implications of the comparative size of Syria v. Libya:

http://freedomslighthouse.net/2012/10/12/joe-biden-debate-gaffe-says-syria-is-five-times-larger-geographically-than-libya-video-101112/

Also, and this topic reminds me of it, didn't Barack "The chair debates better than me" Obamo state that Iran was just a tiny country, not a threat at all!

Are you kidding me? Try watching more than a nine second clip. He corrected himself. Everyone that is only clinging to unfair out of context remarks is really missing the point of picking the best candidate for the job. Watch the whole clip here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH3UiNMze1E

You misunderstood - Biden meant that the DEATH RATE of innocents in Syria is five times that of Libya, where he and Obama led from behind to install a Muslim Brotherhood government able to kill American ambassadors and citizens at will with no retaliation.

Bill, I wish it was funny.

I remember when Biden was calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein. Funny how elections can change things...

“I think Saddam either has to be separated from his weapons or taken out of power.” - Joe Biden, August 2002

Biden is just a senile old doddering fart who's gumpy...that is AGE DISCRIMINATION!

Oh wait, you mean I just stated something that the Dems called McCain back in 2008? Yes, how dare me!

Also, from what I recall in 2008, Sarah Palin schooled the **** out of Biden in that VP debate. Now Biden is just an old grump running with an arrogant windbag who is out of ideas. Romney should just debate the chair, the chair will actually have a change of winning next week. Leave Obamo behind the stage so he can bask in his cloud of smug.

Kathy, you're right on. Biden's tactic was to make his carnival sideshow into the main topic long enough to make people forget about Romney's slam dunk-fest last week and Obama's pathetic failure, and to buy time in the news-cycle until the next showdown between the main candidates this coming Tuesday. It is sort of working as of this morning, but it does also moreover seem that enough people are weary of the smoke-and-mirrors of the democrats and are just ready for fresh, sober, honest capitalism to take the place of European-style socialist fairyland and economic stagnation. We are headed for the cliff and people just don't have time for clown acts.

The parents of one of the SEALS killed (due to suicidal, politically-correct RoE) in the helicopter crash in Afghanistan were on Hannity two nights ago, I'm sure you saw the segment, and the father's desperate plea for sanity and his damning indictment of Obama's policies was heart-rending and it resonates throughout the living rooms and mobile devices of America. ENOUGH

The details of the operation, timetable and exact location and force strength, weapons, personnel, all logistics had to be shared and worked out with the Afghans we are training and working with--the same people who have numerous Taliban spies and assassins within their ranks--and then we send our boys into the landing zone with their hands tied, the same LZ where the Taliban informants among our "partners" have made sure their fellow Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters have ALL the details of the operation, timetables, location, etc., so that they can set up the ambush well in advance and shoot our chopper out of the sky/slaughter our teams, while our troops and planes and artillery are commanded not to deliver support fire nor reinforcements because the Afghans are supposed to learn how to operate without it and be the primary role(even as they are actually the ones arranging the ambush), because there is a mosque nearby, because there is a Koran in someone's f****** vehicle or something, because WE HAVE BEEN PREVENTED FROM ENGAGING THE ENEMY UNLESS WE ARE EVENLY OR OUTNUMBERED/OUTGUNNED BY THEM!!!!

And the mother of one of the SEALS told Romney to stop using her son as a political tool.

Considering that Biden lied about murder of 4 Americans in Libya, lied about Ryan's Medicare plan, lied about his yes votes for the Iraq & Afghanistan war among other things - then yes he had a good night.

What!!? Michele is 5 gazillion times hotter than Ann. Ann looks like a robot.

And that is relevant to how they govern? How?

You fail to mention or have no clue about your boy Romney building an elevator in his garage at his Cali mansion to house his 20+ cars. Before you criticize me, google it and read the story. If you think a man of the people is Romney who made $20 million last year, paid 14% in taxes and enjoys chopping up companies and selling them in smaller pieces to make massive gains aligns with your definition working man, then, vote for him.

I make around $150K a year, pay my fair share in taxes. Don't believe in hand-outs but believe America comes first, not corporations. I don't believe everything in Obama/Biden, but, at least when I see the Democratic convention I see Latinos, Whites, Asians, Blacks.. a representation of America working class.

@Brambleton - And how did Romney get down to the 14% figure? By giving 30% of his income for the year to charity.

As for 'chopping up companies,' how many companies did Bain Capital save? Staples, Burger king, Clear Channel just to name a few. How many unions have their cash stashed with Bain? Check it out here:

http://leehernly.me/?p=5305

Biden's income is also quite a bit larger than Ryan's--but he gives less to charity. So much for a "man of the people". His wife insists on her "Dr" being used. It is interesting that Lynn Cheney had a PHD--but I never heard her called "Dr. Cheney". This doesn't really matter-and neither do the pens. But, it is interesting.

As far as Romney's "elevator"--so what? It is his money! I'm far more concerned about how Obama spends MY money. (Michelle's travel is a great example, along with the waste of "green energy" money.

Ryan is a multi-millionaire. Biden is not.

@Cheryl - The Biden Mansion in Delaware alone is worth almost $3M (2008) - probably worth more now. So Biden's net worth is not as bad as you make it out to be. Most of Paul Ryan's wealth comes from his wife.

http://www.zillow.com/blog/2008-08-25/joe-bidens-house-endures-the-media-swarm/

Biden charges the Secret Service rent for the guest hous they use on his property! To say Biden is not a multimillionaire is stupid, idiotic and uninformed. Cheryl Darby, you are a total buffon

hmmmm....using that criteria....does either Obama or Biden have a car elevator in any house? Or do they write off dancing horses? If you think Romney/Ryan are "men of the people"....you don't know many normal people. :)

LOL

You meant meerkat

DOH...ya, thanks!

Pretty ridiculous when "yuppie" becomes an insult. As if being young, educated, and employed is a thing to be ashamed of.

We're glad you moved too. Bye.

I am also leaving this area! The area has gone down hill in the last 10 years and is getting worse. Politics aside, the area is bottoming out and Fairfax County is no where to be found in the South of the County. Just remember Fairfax's no show during the storm.

Patricia, you are busted--Biden said REPEATEDLY that Syria is geographically 5 times larger than Libya, when the fact is that Libya is TEN times the geographic size of Syria. I provided a link already, further up(although the link cuts off before Biden says it again and again, repeating the lie) It was no mere gaffe, because Biden constructed his argument around the falsehood, saying that the size disparity had to do with different policy approaches--and given that he's been around the block plenty, at 68 years old and his lengthy tenure in senate foreign relations, he knows full well the actual dimensions of each country. He is just a dishonest blowhard, and such inferior character is not the kind of leadership we need to correct this mess.

The rest of what you typed is nonsense.

Ryan pointed out that we have a full contingent of Marines at the embassy in Paris, but the Obama administration refused to supply anything like adequate security(despite repeated pleas for help from our people there) in Benghazi, where there had been over 240 incidents of either overt attacks, threats, IEDs, and other security incidents in the months leading up to 9/11/12. This is FUBAR. Obama's policy is to deny the existence of the bellicosity and depraved, savage hostility of the Muslim world, and act as if we simply expose our throats and belly to them, they will snuggle warmly with us and sing Kumbayah. Biden LIED and said there were no requests for security from our people in Benghazi!

Quoted from the CBS site:
Biden: (asked why the logic regarding acting to prevent massacres in Libya did not apply to Syria): “It’s a different country. It is five times as large geographically, it has one-fifth the population, that is Libya, one-fifth the population, five times as large geographically.”

From the read, it sounds like he misspoke and then corrected himself -- Libya 1/5 the population, 5 times the size

Biden replied to the question by saying that Syria is 5 times larger geographically than Libya, and he emphasized it. He plays so fast and loose with vital facts that it's downright scary that he is next in line for the presidency. The fact is that Libya is TEN times larger geographically. Biden thinks all of us are stupider than he is.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/10/12/Biden-Shows-His-Foreign-Policy-Prowess-By-Claiming-Syria-Five-Times-Larger-Than-Libya

Sigh--I know that I will not convince DJ, nor DJ's bombast and links to highly questionable bias sources convince me. However, here is a link to the actual transcript for anyone who is interested in going back to what was actually said: http://www.npr.org/2012/10/11/162754053/transcript-biden-ryan-vice-presidential-debate Biden misspoke and corrected himself.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because cranky old men are always sitting around with a smile on their face and uncontrollable laughter. That has to be about the weakest and most ridiculously off base observation that I have yet to hear about last night's debate. You and/or Brit may not like Biden on style points, but to say that looked like a cranky old man sounds like something out of Bizarro World.

If you are looking for the truth out of last night's debate, why not look at the whole of it? here is the fact check on it, showing Biden being far more truthful than Ryan...

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/veep-debate-violations/

Factcheck. com is slanted toward the Left, while they pretend to present an appearance of balance. Notice how they don't even bother to point out Biden repeatedly lying about the size of Syria relative to Libya? Such a blatant and obvious lie is easily debunked, but Factcheck just couldn't be bothered. I have already thoroughly shown that it was no mere gaffe, that it was a deliberate falsehood used to push a policy difference in regard to the two countries.

Watts, factcheck.org is the same as quoting moveon.org...just sad because it is so blatantly full of it and one sided.

OK, for the blah blah blah...tin foil hat...the whole world is conspiring crowd, here is Politifact also showing that Biden was far more truthful than Ryan last night...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/oct/11/fact-checking-vice-presidential-debate-between-joe/

Dear Watts -

Politifact also has a proven selection bias. See:

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/cspg/smartpolitics/2011/02/selection_bias_politifact_rate.php

This site is pretty entertaining http://www.politifactbias.com/

OK, sorry, I am not here to play to the paranoia crowd. You are never going to believe anything unless it comes from Glenn Beck, so my posts are the facts for teh sane people out there.

Actually, Glenn Beck is just a scare monger who makes things up to sell more books and gain more subscribers. While I support his efforts in competing in the market and do not denigrate his fans, I chose not to consume his message.

Difference is, sites you quote claim to be "official" and unbiased, when they are clearly not. Also, the oval office and "reputable" news sources use these sources as "fact". Glenn Beck is just Glenn Beck, it's not veiled in false legitimacy.

I'll keep the tinfoil for leftovers in the freezer, thanks though :)

Mike, you seem okay, pretty level-headed and all, but Glenn Beck actually is a brilliant (albeit sometimes a bit hyper) journalist--it's true that he sometimes goes a tiny bit off the deep end, but honestly when he talks about things like the Cloward-Piven strategy of orchestrated crisis, he is dead-on. The fact is that there ARE actual communist conspiracies out there, and one can easily pull up Cloward and Piven's own papers and read about their plans to collapse the capitalist economy of America, and replace it with socialism, by overloading it with entitlement demands, convincing the masses and masses of urban poor to swarm and overwhelm and crash the welfare agencies so that capitalism could then be declared inadequate to meet the demands of humanity, etc. Well, that is exactly what is happening now to our economy...it happened in NYC in the last decades, which nearly went bankrupt, until Rudy Giuliani learned about the Cloward-Piven strategy and employed counter-measures to save that city. Remember, we are talking about the conspirators' own words and plans spelled out by themselves:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/theclowardpivenstrategypoe.html

Furthermore, KGB defectors like Yuri Bezmenov describe in methodical detail how communists have stealthily subverted and demoralized the West:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS8LA-5fmrs&feature=related

I am a Ron Paul guy at heart, but no way in heck am I voting for that smug-n-arrogant Obama...though I would vote for his chair, has more class!

Are you one of those republicans who voted for Obama? What you typed makes no sense whatsoever.

Personally, I admit voting for Clinton way back in the day :)

The differences in defense spending are rather miniscule. How will Romney pay for it? By growing the economy instead of letting it sputter along at a stagflation pace.

See:

http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/10/08/budget_crunched_the_facts_of_romney_s_proposed_2_trillion_defense_increase

So again, you accuse others of lying, and of making spurious posts, etc., but when you are confronted with the counter-argument that disproves what you say, and re-emphasizes your candidate's actual lies, you try to change the subject, and whine about fiscal discipline, distort on entitlements, military budget, etc. Cowardice.

@Patricia -

The $6,400 Medicare claim is based on an old, outdated plan. [Gasp!] 'Laughing' Joe Biden stared into the camera and lied to seniors.

"On the other hand if you're retired military then it's easy to see how you like the idea of everyone else going without while you get pension increases free medical care and taxpayer subsidized PX prices forever"............ YOU ungrateful piece of crap..how can you say this to our military who are protecting you day and night, so you can say BS like you just said.... THEY damn sure earn that little bit of pay raise and PX prices..hahaha re you kidding me...there is not that much of a savings at the local PX, nor are they paid anywhere near what we in the private sector make.....as far as them "going" anywhere, they do what they are ordered to do, just like any other employee, except they put their life on the line 24 /7...How simple are you to be JEALOUS of that.... I'm not military, retired miliatry nor a spouse of anyone who is, I'm just a Very Proud American who appreciates our military men and women for going thru the hell they do..for ingrates like YOU!!

FYI---Military retirees are on Medicare like everyone else. They do get some benefit on prescription drugs. If they choose to untilize military facilities they must pay extra fees (Tricare Prime) Pre-Medicare, Tricare operates like health insurance--if you want to use military facilities you must pay an additional fees.
The PX is self-supporting and the profits go to support Morale and Welfare activities. The prices really are not cheap. For the most part they exist to support families who live on post. In some areas, posts are remote and shopping is not readily available off-post. The commissaries are non-profit and are a benefit. The prices at local stores are frequently cheaper--but if you do one-stop shopping, you are probably saving money at the commissary. These are not big costs to the taxpayers. The medical facilities are a cost-but retirees are sharing a much bigger burden than in the past and do pay Medicare out of Social Security. Of course,if a retiree works after retiring from the military, he also pays additional fees to Social Security and Medicare. Most military are far from freeloaders.
And, if you think government run health care is so great, just ask an older military wife about experiences in military clinics in the past.

Patricia, don't deign to lecture anybody on here after you showed up lying about what Biden said regarding the geographic size of Libya v. Syria. Desist with your screeds telling people to watch the debate again, when you are the one that needs to watch again and admit that what you have said utterly is false. As far sending our troops anywhere, I'd prefer not one more single American's life lost or put on the line for the sake of Muslims, anywhere on the planet. Unless any military operation is of vital strategic or tactical value to us or an ally of ours, we must learn to stay the hell away from these suicidal nation-building fiascos wherein 7th-century Mohammedan savages are deemed to be our equals, etc.

...and if we do decide to send troops anywhere, we must be at least as ruthless as the enemy, or not even bother.

Oh dang that is funny Lee

Glad you brought it up, I had been planning to point it out myself but I got wrapped up in the Syria/Libya stuff...Biden sits there and says he believes that life begins at conception (which would mean that abortion is murder), and then in the next breath says that he is okay with people having other beliefs and practicing abortion. So his policy is to stand aside while babies are, by his own definition, murdered. Either he doesn't have a conscience, or he is lying about his beliefs, or both...

Recall that Obama was the chief reason why the Born Alive Infant Protection Act was at first killed in the Illinois senate--he worked feverishly to stop a bill that would have made sure viable babies who survived botched, late-term abortions would no longer be placed in hospital soiled linen closets to die, uncared for and unfed. Obama is a monster.

I'm not advocating hating anyone. I do think, though, if you 're running for public office, you shouldn't have $250 million in offshore bank accounts in order to avoid paying income taxes, especially after you denugrate 47% of Americans for not paying taxes. I realize it's legal. I just think it's hypocritical,

Just as it's hypocritical when liberal dems damn the 1% and wall street, when they are in bed with the same bankers they demonize. They say one thing, and do the opposite. They state they should be held accountable, but in reality not one "evil banker" has been arrested, tried, or convicted.

Cheryl, Romney merely stated the fact that it was a waste of time and resources for him to worry about those 47% who will vote for Obama no matter what, and he failed to parse his words to clarify that not all of those 47% are the entitlement-minded looters and moochers that we all know do exist among our population. He didn't denigrate anyone just for not making enough money to have zero federal income tax liability, he merely broadly conceptualized the fact that many, many of those same people do have a victim mentality, are eager to be dependent on government, and are not interested in being responsible for their own lives. Romney has said that his words were not well-chosen in the off-the-cuff talk.

Face it, we have allowed politicians to remain in office without term limits largely by installing a vote-buying, runaway welfare state which invites abuse by millions of inferior people. Abuse of the entitlement programs, in this milieu of moral hazard, is not merely occasional and isolated, it is rampant and everywhere, because we have as a society deliberately worked to erase the sense of shame that used to accompany illegitimacy--now, we instead shame anyone who attempts to espouse morality!

2010 - yawn.

US Congressman Dennis Kucinich on Al-Qaeda flag over Benghazi Courthouse 02-11-2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPbXc78bOjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TnoYMMVrJ0
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/rnr/3333518993.html

N-Joy!!!

On that note...why didn't the Dem congress impeach, censure, or do anything? They had YEARS to do that. Yet, they did not. It's 2012, this blame Bush mantra the left pushes is just sad, pathetic, and tired.

I think Bush has been gone for almost four years. Bush is not running for President. As far as intelligence, both Bush and Clinton probably passed up opportunities to improve things.
There are 2 issues here with Benghazi:
1. More Security was requested before the attack. State knew this. State is part of the administration. They knew that there were terrorists in Benghazi.
2. Immediately after the attack -in real time- State knew the attack was NOT the result of a mob protest. (Did you watch the hearings on Wednesday?) State (H. Clinton) and Presdient Obama blamed the video--even at the ceremony accepting the remains.
They are now blaming the intelligence community--but, again, State knew in REAL Time that it was not.

How can you deny that this is a cover-up?
And, by the way, right after Obama "accepted the remains", he flew to Vegas.
And, also, remember, the Administration has classified the Ft. Hood shooting as "workplace violence". Do you agree with that? A man who had direct communications with Al Queda.

I knew somehow you would blame it on Democrats!

Morgan and Brokaw and countless prominent others in the MSM said as much, and Huckabee even specifically said Biden acted like a drunk.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151093420392869&set=a.74256207868.77439.6934857868&type=1&theater

Brokaw had pretty strong words. I agree that he did not call him an obnoxious drunk, but he clearly thought that Biden had stepped way over the line. Go to Nbcnews and watch it.

Sobriety is a state of mind. I suppose, Cheryl, you'd say Biden was sober? Ryan is the very epitome of sobriety. Biden is a drunken power-mad lunatic.

I'd say he was off his meds or he drank the bleach after having his teeth whitened.

Thank you, Paul. I'm outta here. Do yourself a favor and do the same. Don't waste your time trying to make rational arguments to irrational people.

As a middle class man Paul, under Romney/Ryan, I will be paying almost $4K less in federal tax than I do now. I can certainly put that toward my kids education.

As for women's rights, under ObamaCare, Obama/Biden have taken away women's right to have sovereignty over their own body and put it in the hands of Govt bureaucrats.

So whose lying now??

Yes it is that exact coercive power of govt. that caused 43 Catholic dioceses and organizations to file a lawsuit against the Obama administration.

Isn't Romney in the business of being a venture capitalist? He has an MBA from Harvard. I am pretty sure that he resolved that whole tax return issue the libs were crying about last month. But, like the Bush stuff, I cannot stop you from beating that poor dead horse into a pile of goo :)

Side note. I wish you, and all in this discussion a wonderful weekend, Miller time is upon me!

4.1% of Americans receive welfare.

95% of Americans believe in angels.

Cheryl government dependency is more than welfare, it includes income (both working and not working), student aid (now govt controlled), healthcare, housing, food stamps ,etc. It is a mindset - the antithesis of what our founding fathers wanted. Obama and his minions want everyone to need govt. Government is replacing the traditional roles of individuals , families, neighborhoods, religious charities (hence the war on Catholic charities), and other societal institutions. We are losing the human life experience at its fullest when we have the mindset that a bloviated beuracracy will take care of us. Sad indeed.

There are something like 40 million people receiving food stamps. There are tens and tens of millions receiving unemployment checks. Millions and millions receive Section 8 housing. There are many myriads of federal and state and county and local welfare programs of various kinds, and half of the country is getting some kind of government checks on a regular basis. Social Security, SSI, SSD, EBT, various state disability programs, various federal and other types of disability, all kinds of grants and subsidies and lunch programs and Obama phones everywhere...in Ohio, the number of people with Obama phones has quadrupled since 2008, to over a million...so Cheryl, you are wrong.

Ah yes universal health care - the great equalizer. Once they the government have control of your health they will control your mind body and your behavior and yes your choices as dictated by the select few.

Who says those who are opposed to big-government socialism don't have compassion for children? That's the problem with you lefties--you always see government force as the only way to be kind to people (when in fact it winds up producing more poverty and unkind conditions in society in the long term, overall). We on the right see that true kindness must be separate from armed force of government. Don't you realize that your church is not a government agency?

We've had deades and decades of this so-called "War on Poverty" through various so-called "Great Society" and "New Deal" socialism, and poverty has either increased, or simply become more luxurious than it was before, or whatever with the big-screen TVs and whatnot.

I've had to wonder where my next meal was coming from in my life, and I'm with Romney. The situation spurred me to examine my decisions leading to that situation, and to get off my butt and work. I have also received help,in various forms in my life at times, and I have compassion for those who are in need--but we have seriously turned the safety net into a hammock and a way of life for many, many people, for generation after generation.

Also, if you think abortion is okay, by definition you are NOT Catholic.

Tom Cody, these people actually think that government calling something "affordable" and "universal" will magically eliminate the economic factors/reality of excess demand, scarcity, production and supply issues, quality/delivery issues, competence and adequacy of the number of doctors able and willing to work as virtual slaves, waiting lists, rationing, lack of incentive for reasearch and development of breakthrough drugs, technologies and procedures, etc. They simply do not get how capiatlism is the most compassionate economic model upon which to base health care services delivery, because the profit motive results in highest quality and most abundant supply, with ample spillover for altruistic largesse and plenty of charity everywhere. Encouraging individual responsibility and initiative means that there is a land of plenty for providing for those who are simply unable to be responsible for themselves. Democrats just can't seem to intellectually process the facts about economics.

@Cheryl - Ask yourself this - Democrats claim to be the party of the poor and the oppressed - why is it then people are more poor and more oppressed when they leave office?

As a fellow Catholic, how do you feel about the way Joe Biden lied about the HHS mandate for Catholic institutions during the debate last night.

Biden said:
“With regard to the assault on the Catholic Church, let me make it absolutely clear. No religious institution—Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital—none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact. That is a fact.”

That is actually a flat-out lie,

Do you spend all your time surfing the internet looking for things that support your vewpoint? I could do the same. To what end? If it makes you feel good to treat people with contempt, go for it. I don't agree. As I said, my faith tells me I must help those in need. All this talk from Republicans about God and family, and yet those in need are on their own?

My faith tells me the same thing, and it also tells me to tirelessly oppose those that want to deploy the force of government against private property, against virtue, in order to win elections by appearing to be kind, compassionate, etc., and install programs that do more harm than good so that they can appear to be do-gooders. I have some advice for you: If you really want to do good work in the name of God, then just help people and don't advertise that you are doing it, and keep the coercive force of government out of it.

Where do you get the idea that republicans want to leave those in need on their own?

Excellent video - thanks.

The moderator interrupted Ryan 34 times, Biden interrupted him 82 times, for a grand total of Ryan being interrupted 116 times.

After Obama's inauguration, the national mall was trashed, with garbage and debris strewn literally everywhere, as far as the eye could see. When the Tea Party gathered for massive rallies and demonstrations on the national mall, by the millions, they left the area spotless, and even cleaner than they found it.

Romney/Ryan 2012

Catholic Bishops are pretty mad at Joe Biden after last night's lie.

http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-163.cfm

No, I already know that there aren't really very many Catholics at all anymore. There are nominal Catholics, mainly. They call themsleves Catholics, but they neither believe in nor practice/observe the rudiments of the faith.

How can Romney be Mormon and take the stance he has on immigrants and the poor? Many Mormons can't believe it, including church leaders. I am a Catholic, but I believe, as Biden stated, I cannot force non-Catholics to do something against their own interests. If a woman is pregnant due to rape, or her life is in danger, what right do I have to interfere in her personal decision? I don't and neither does the government.

@Cheryl - Paul Ryan agreed 100% with you last night in the case of rape or the woman's health.

Why can't you separate helping the poor from using guns to forcibly take the fruits of others' labor so that you can appear "compassionate", instead of just helping people yourself? That's what Romney does, he just helps people to the tune of literally millions upon millions of his own money--he is not trying to win election by posing as a do-gooder and campaigning to force others to use THEIR property to help others; he just does it himself, as part of his Mormon faith, and doesn't go around telling people about it.

So-o-o-o-o-o-o true!

Lee that was a slam dunk!

Rebecca, I also have talked with rape victims who felt they had to abort. We have no right to force a woman to do something she can't do.

How does that differ from what I said? Again, you fail to distinguish voluntary, religious charity from coercive use of government force to install socialist regimes which make social problems and poverty worse.

I was referring to things like birth control, abortion, sex outside of marriage, intemperance, and so forth.

Rebecca, I respect your opinion, and I hope you're never faced with that decision. I believe that choice should be between a woman and her doctor. In my view, if a woman's life is in danger, abortion should be available as an option. If you had other children and your life was in danger, would you not consider abortion?

Are you against the death penalty?

I agree with you on this Billie. Perfectly stated.

Tell us how you really feel.........:)

I am not saying that you shouldn't be concerned about this issue. What I am saying is that the Economy needs FOCUS and quickly. There is time to debate issues that don't put food on the table or pay bills.

Abortion is a huge, very complex issue. Scott however, is right in that the US economy is the worst it has ever been. People are worried about feeding their children; about their health care or lack of it. These are the issues to be dealt with NOW.

To answer your question Cheryl, YES I am against the death penalty. Are you?

How is this Obama care being paid for? Where will the Gov get the money and what about all those people who can't afford coverage but are being forced to purchase healthcare?

I am glad that you are doing well but is it entirely about you? Do you not care about those people who are not doing well or are you one of those people who say I am doing well and I don't care if people in other areas are suffering? It's all good right doesn't matter if people are starving and poverty is increasing?

Gee, Get Real,
You are doing so great financially under Obama. I would be embarrassed to brag about a free colonoscopy if I were doing as well as you say. I guess I was raised with the feeling that personal responsibility included taking care of your own business.
Let me see, do you have a newer model car? a flat screen tv? an Ipad? other electronics. Do you go on vacations, etc. etc. Yet you need your health care to be free????? What are you doing with all your money?

on the supreme court today, do we already have more conservative judges than liberal judges? Why hasn't Roe v. Wade be overturned since 1973? And why do we think it will be done the next 4 years?

While you are on Romney's website, check out the amount of charity contributions he has made. Actually, he does not brag about it so it is probably not on his website. Check out how much Biden has contributed to charity over the past two years. He has given less in two years that my husband & I contribute in one month!

Romney constanty interrupted the President, then told Jim Lehrer he'd be unemployed. Not exactly warm and fuzzy.

Biden made such a fool out of himself. He really looked like a clown! How immature of him to behave the way he did. I bet Jill was embarrassed!

You need to speak with actual military personnel. What you say, is craziness. Obama has cut our military on many levels, especially economically. He doe not see the US as a world power, nor does he plan to allow it to remain a powerful nation. He wants to put us down to the level of all other countries - to level the playing filed, & then what happens when we are attacked again??? The military budget has been cut down since O took office. We need a strong defense as a show of force, & hopefully not to use it. Romney is not interested in bombing anyone. I will say this about O - he has no interest in assisting Israel at all. He does not like Benjamen N., & has made that obvious with his comments, esp when the mike is still on & he is in a private conversation. He has not even been to Israel since he came into office! Not good.

@Ann.. why should anyone even consider any of your thoughts measured and relevant when you start out with the declaration that “ Gov. Romney would LOVE to bomb Iran and other countries” and end up with a highly biased article on the military fro extreme left Rachel Maddow in the equally extreme dailykos.com?

The military budget should be examined but in a thoughtful way relative to a foreign policy and consistent with our nations safety and world mission (like aiding Europe and other defensless countries who can not afford a force or who have gone down the “Maddow” path of gutting their own forces to near irrelevance.

What is an appropriate US military budget? Romney s not president.. Obama is.. is cutting the budget by $1 trillion (to ½ the current size) as Obama and the Dems want to do good for America, even assuming terrorism and Islamic jihadism is no longer a threat as the left (and you?) seem wont to think?

Ann, If Obama has done so much for the military, why are the military having such a hard time getting absentee ballots this year. Have you not read that the voting offices required by law are not being implemented? Ohio tried to extend voting hours to active military as a special privilege and the Obama administration sued to extend it to everyone. (It was only to keep the offices open a few more days for the military--extending it to everyone results in great additional expense.)
If he has done so much for the military, why has he done so many things that damage the safety of our soldiers in Afghanistan? Why did he "spike the football" after bin Laden's death resulting at putting our servicemembers (Seals, especially) at great risk? Why does he classify the Ft. Hood shooting as workplace violence--and not Islamic terrorism? (This means that soldiers injured are not entitled to Purple Hearts and certain other benefits) Why is he shrinking our Navy to pre-WWI levels? Giving speeches and shaking hands is not support. And, did you know that the federal government is one of the worst abusers of the laws protecting jobs of Reservists and National Guard members?

Yes he can do that by actually growing the economy like Clinton & Reagan did. The whole argument Biden & Obama are throwing at you is based on 0% growth (in a plan written by a former Obama employee at the TPC). As bad an economic President as Mr. Obama has been, he has grown the economy at an anemic rate.

Please provide a link for that quote. Also the libs have been saying the sky is falling since Ronald Reagan was elected.

My two cents: the roe vs wade decision was a disgrace in that 5 people decided the fate of human life and there is no recourse . Our constitution is set up so that when "radical" or new conceptual ideas that exceed the restraints of the Constitution they can be made law by an amendment requiring 2/3 state majority. In other words the country really wants it. The libs new that they could never get that so they got 5 people to decide for us.

At this stage abortion is imbedded into our society for better or worse. I don't believe it should be overturned in the Supreme Court as much as I would like to say screw you. It was in 1969 the wrong way to go about and thus it still remains wrong now. Abortion is the law of the land. If we do not like it we the people need to change it - not judges. Therefore fight the fight by seeking an amendment to the constitution or fight it at the state level.

Coming to a TV set near you. A new ad about Obama supporting the killing of live babies after failed abortions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fngTzB-WTZY
I think one of the well known liberal fact checking organizations studied this a while ago and found that Obama's been lying about his position on this issue all along. He indeed supports letting the aborted baby die for the sake of the fulfilling the abortion. Too extreme for me. Maybe Don Joy can help find the link to that report.

Cheryl -

Joe Biden voted for a Constitutional Amendment to overturn Roe v. Wade - so it's not just Republicans.

That is a profound statement......NOT.................please explain that comment.....

You stated that Romney said he would overturn roe vs wade in the courts or legislatively. Please provide the link to that exact quote. I don't think there is anything wrong with him if he did say that but I have never heard that direct quote from him. Why can't the republicans do it if the dens did it in 1969? Personally I feel it should be done through the legislaluture and the people - a much more appropriate and honorable means than the cowards of Roe vs Wade

This is a blind alley

How do you know that "Religion remains the main motivator for individual contributions"? I know many non-religious, moral folks who contribute to charity in many ways....not only monetary, but with their time....so I do not think you can equate religion with giving to charity. Charity cannot begin to meet the needs of the poor in our country or around the world. That's why we should not let Romney/Ryan and their Repub allies shred the safety net we have.

very true, Ms Darby.....many low income folks contribute their time, although they do not have enough money to contribute monetarily to "charity"

You actually said Romney, but whatever.

See previous reply - it's not too hard to understand.

Just in case you can't find it,

My two cents: the roe vs wade decision was a disgrace in that 5 people decided the fate of human life and there is no recourse . Our constitution is set up so that when "radical" or new conceptual ideas that exceed the restraints of the Constitution they can be made law by an amendment requiring 2/3 state majority. In other words the country really wants it. The libs new that they could never get that so they got 5 people to decide for us.
At this stage abortion is imbedded into our society for better or worse. I don't believe it should be overturned in the Supreme Court as much as I would like to say screw you. It was in 1969 the wrong way to go about and thus it still remains wrong now. Abortion is the law of the land. If we do not like it we the people need to change it - not judges. Therefore fight the fight by seeking an amendment to the constitution or fight it at the state level.

Like I already said, YES, I am against the death penalty. It is not up to us to determine who lives or dies in this world.

Now Rebecca your not playing fair and falling into the old trap that how can you be against abortion but for the death penalty! Somehow the argument that being against the death penalty because we have no right to taken human life but it's ok to take the pure innocent life of an unborn child (and in obamas case the surving aborted child) under the guise of reproductive rights makes perfect sense to them. If you can't hear them they really aren't there. Kind of like when a tree falls and doesn't make sound when nobody is there.

Biden lied through his teeth during the entire debate. Biden lied about sanctions, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the Romney tax plan, etc. Maybe that's why Ryan had the look that he did. Kudos to Mr. Ryan for keeping his cool while Mr. Biden was rude and condescending and un-Vice Presidential. Maybe that's why a vast majority of the polls had Ryan winning the debate?

Check out this video on YouTube:<br/><br/>http://youtu.be/EixwsE2z1Ts

Quite a clever edit. I think someone can make this into a full fledged documentary with all the promises, broken promises and lies that came out of the mouths of Obama and Biden. Now having Biden laughing at Biden would be good. Unfortunately I am not clever enough to do this.

GetReal -

Joe Biden has lied for years. See this 1988 NBC News report on Joe Biden's plagiarism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIaALKHVrAA

Sadly Tom, that's the state the modern-day Democratic party finds themselves in. Maybe that's why Biden's hometown Bishop has denied Biden communion?

Is that true - not to doubt you but I would love to have a link. Why doesn't anyone throw that back in his face? You are absolutely right the pro choice Catholic democratic or republican is a phony to the nth degree. Abortion is not on the ala carte menu for being a true Catholic.

Tom - see:

http://www.tldm.org/News12/ScrantonBishopWillRefuseHolyCommunionToBiden.htm

Thank you. He is such a freakin phony.

ah, yes, Tom Cody: and what about all those Catholic priests who abused many boys for years and the other Catholic priests who covered it up? Gotta love those good Catholics. And how about divorced Catholics? I thought the church didn't recognize that either? You do well at picking and choosing what the Catholic Church should believe in. And bottom line, popes have changed their minds over the years....I don't think the pope speaks for God or Christ.

So well stated - thanks Tom.

Please read my comments more closely. It is not the combination of being a Republican and pro-choice , it is people who state they are true practicing Catholics that are pro-choice that I believe are phonies pr at least believing they are Catholics under false pretenses. Saying you're Catholic does not make you a Catholic.

Please don't tell me the Nuns on the Bus are pro-choice.

Tom Cody--- I get it.
It's like saying Obama's being president doesn't make him a true leader.

Your answers are beginning to make less sense. Who said anything about being not worthy? Where did you come up with that.
I thought we were talking about being a catholic ? I have divorced friends, i have friens who have had an abortion,I have gay friends, I treat people for free, I even tolerate democrats - no biggie. I don't need a pastor or a church to treat people with respect and decency. But as a human being and as a catholic(just a little bit) I will advocate for life of the unborn .

gosh, Tom Cody sounds like a really p*ssed off Catholic....not very charitable. oh well...Tom...if you advocate for life, are you opposed to the death penalty? Are you opposed to all wars?

A little late to the party there old downer. If you read any of the comments you would recognize that I am not a good practicing Catholic. I am hardly a pissed off Catholic. We're discussing Catholicism with regard to abortion. That was the topic of choice. If you want discuss another topic feel free to introduce it.

don't be disingenuoius tom cady.....is life only important prior to birth? A lot of anti abortion folks seem to think so...you seem to be one.

Romney is Pro-Life - period. Re-the priest's sexual abuse, there is no excuse for it or for the past cover-ups, but we are not alone in this sin. A Jewish friend of mine said that they had to get rid of their Rabbi, for sexual abuse. For some reason, the Catholics always receive the publicity. Go figure...........

Our Catholic Church makes it clear that all are welcome too. We even have a special group for families & parents of gay children.

No one said Romney was the perfect candidate. I would need specifics but as all politicians some is for political expediency and others may be due to true soul searching or as evidence changes.

Try this on for size: we can go on all night with this.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100083104/the-u-turn-president-barack-obama-top-ten-flip-flops/

I am sorry I called you a phony you are not, you seem like a very nice person- I usually save the phony comment for the politicians. I didn't say the Nuns were pro choice - I asked if they were.

I am going to ask you a few questions and I don't even want an answer. Personally I am fried over this topic.

#1. As a Catholic do you feel life begins at conception.
#2. Do you believe in the fundamental commandment of the Catholic Church 'Tho shalt not murder'?
#3. You have stated that you are personally against abortion. Is this because you feel it is murder?
#4. As a human being in society do you feel you have a moral obligation to prevent murder and not to support any act that would be personally viewed as murder.
#5. As a practicing Catholic do you feel a moral obligation to protect and support the commandment ' thou shall not murder'.
#6. Do you feel you have the right to intervene when others in your view are committing an act of murder.
#7. Do you feel pro-choice which is the right of a woman to abort an unborn child is murder as defined by the Catholic Church?

In Virginia, that issue has been decided. Cuccinelli is a long way down the road to oulawing abortion.

I agree with you Billie. Biden's behavior was worse than a pre-schooler who was not getting his way. To me, Ryan was much more polished, professional and mature. He made Biden look bad. Not to mention that Biden flat out lied on different points.

Cheryl not to belabor the point and for what it is worth ,I agree that a woman has the right to an immediate abortion in the case of rape. No person should have to endure that. My only philosophical argument I can make is that the woman's life could be destroyed if she were forced to go through a pregnancy that was involuntary , violent and criminal. It may not be perfect but that is my peace.

Obama has tried to fundamentally change this country & not for the better in my opinion. He needs to study the constitution for one. He says he will do things without thinking them thru. What else can one expect from a "Community Organizer"??? At least Romney was a state governor - in a Dem. state at that. Obama really has no clue what he is doing & he is too proud to consult his peers!

I agree with you Tom. Whatever it takes to get re-eleceted is what O will say too, just like Biden did in that debate where he blatantly lied.

I so agree, Barbara. Thanks, as always, for your clear, civil posts. I think what Obama accomplished is even more amazing when you think of the absolute obstruction of the Republicans for the past two years. Yes, for those of you who will tell me that he had a Democratic majority the first two years, I know that, but it wasn't filibuster proof for all of that two years. I know Romney faced a Democratic majority in Massachusetts, but no where have I seen that they made it their legislative agenda to defeat everything he did. I think politicians who do that and who sign pledges to Grover Norquist are disgraceful. They have an obligation to put country, not party, not some anti-tax jerk, first.

Now you have lost me. Please tell me you're not serious about the unemployment. If you are relying on that 7.8% figure you do realize that that is just ridiculous. There are
more people on food stamps than ever before, there are more people on Social Security than ever before,they do not count People who stopped looking for work as unemployment. 15% of Americans are in poverty! It was 12.7 % under Bush and the dems were foaming at the mouth. Why aren't they so upset now?

Check this wonderful fact checking video and hpw Obama manipulates statistics. Yes I am sorry even the great Obama doesn't play fair. Bottom line poor growth.
The video is important. By the way since moderators always ask Romney and Ryan about their economic plan and details please, what exactly is the Obama Biden plan and details please. No one ever seems to ask them.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/09/private-sector-job-growth-under-obama-what-are-the-facts.php

More later on Superbama saving the AMERICAN auto industry - I guess a silly little company like Ford doesn't count and I guess we can't count Chrysler as American anymore after the UAW sold their majority share (wait the union owned that company after the " bailout"- yes but it wasn't politics I promiseObama said so) to Fiat. Taxpayers lost 1.3 billion dollars in the deal but what's 1.3 billion when we are now dealing with trillions!!! The good news is the unions made out well - real well.

to Tom Cody: Of course there are more people on food stamps....the hole Bush and the Repubs dug us into cannot be fixed in just a few years.....ditto with the umemployment rate...and the poverty rate. These statistics are the result of the terrible damage Bush et al did to our economy and you can't correct them overnight. Bush had 8 years to screw things up. We're lucky that Obama and his administration prevented us from going into a depression....Get real.

The Seals got Osama - I have a friend at the pentagon & that plan has been in place well before O took office. Health Care Reform - "If you think that health care is expensive now, just wait until it is free!"

Rebecca, I'm really tired of people saying that the SEALS got Osama. Yes, they did the raid and Obama has always given them credit. As Commander in Chief, he also gets the credit. Remember the guy from the Bush administration saying "we got him" about Sadam. Actually the soldiers did. You all just don't want to give Obama credit for anything. That's like saying General Eisenhower didn't defeat the Axis powers because the soldiers did it.

What's Obamas plan on saving Medicare and Social Security? I know his immediate plan is to cut benefits from Medicare patients something that Romney will not be doing to current Medicare holders and people now 55 or older. See attached - don't let the facts and lies of Obama get in the way.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/10/02/the-ratio-of-obamacares-medicare-cuts-to-new-benefits-is-fifteen-to-one/

I am sorry I found the answer:

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/emptychair4.jpg

If O gets re-elected, who will he blame then. "Look what I have inherited over the last four years???" I have never seen such a blamer. At some point, he must take responsibility as a REAL leader & not as a poser!

Good for you, Cheryl Darby I agree. Also, folks, health care is not a commodity like ice cream. Indeed, it is a necessity in a civilized society....you don't need ice cream .....you need health care. That 's why the free market model doesn't work for health care. Sorry, folks, but if you look at other developed countries, most of them have figured this out by now.

Okay, you are................

Cheryl, dear, you're not stupid and please don't give Rebecca and her ilk an opening like that! Rebecca, that was uncalled for. And by the way, re your post on knowing someone at the Pentagon who said the plan to catch Bin Laden came from the Bush administration, who is this friend, what is his/her position there, and if this is true, why haven't the Republicans made a big deal out of this bit of information? And even if it were true, the catch still happened on Obama's watch. Bush said long ago that he quit looking for Osama.

Renee - the article itself merely asks for the community's opinion. Obviously, the community has a very active and divisive views on politics. If we did not allow opinions, THEN we would have a spin rag. As long as people follow our terms of service, they are welcome to discuss politics here. Readers are welcome to choose which stories they want to read - if politics does not appeal to you, then skip over to read what is going on in Lorton.

I find this discourse quite interesting, although it is taking a lot of time to keep up with. Thanks.

Mr. Cody: "Hate" is a strong word. Why would you "hate" Medicare, which was designed to help take care of our elderly citizens? Since you say you don't like "government controlled programs" it sounds like you are some kind of anarchist. Government is designed, basically, to help form a society that benefits all and looks for the common good. Sounds like you don't like that idea. And by the way, I think former analysis has indicated that tort reform is really just a small part of the problem with medical costs....I'm no huge fan of lawyers, but they are not the problem with medical care costs in our country.

I love Medicare.

I have paid my way all my life, but I do have compassion for babies who come into this world with catastrophic health problems and older people who are sick. I just can't turn my back and pretend they don't exist,

Jade someday, if you live long enough, you'll be old and possibly sick too. Who do you want to care for you. Paying for preventive care makes a lot of sense; if you can prevent things like diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, you save a lot of money in the long run. Do you really think that poor people get good free care in public hospitals?

Carol poor people better get good care in public hospitals because after Obamacare wreaks its havoc there will be no more private hospitals. We're going public!!!

Jade, Jade....the "experts" at the insurance companies are only interested in maximizing their profits! For their shareholders. They are not committed to providing the best health care. Can't tell you how many times w/ elderly parents...hospitalized, in nursing homes....we had to fight with the insurance companies for coverage. They just wanted to kick you out of the hospital and go home to be cared for by an 80+ year old spouse. All so they could save money. Doctors know best about what is needed for patients...not insurance companies.

Not really Cheryl - the cost of premiums is going up and yes the cost of care is going up. One big difference : Romney bill: 70 pages Obama bill: 2,473 pages. Ain't the same. Obama says it for political purposes. It is the same with regard to mandating individuals to have insurance.

Cmon Tom, even Romney said the in the initial planning stages of Obamacare that it was like his model in Mass. And O-care is more pages because it's for a whole country not a state. I think Obamacare will work quite well if the Reps don't win and pick it apart.

Carol you really didn't mean to say the bill Is bigger because there are more states. I'll give you two seconds to reconsider. Why not make it 70 pages and mandate it for every state. There is regulation after regulation after regulation that they still don't understand and still do not know the true ramifications. As genius Nancy Pelosi said "you gotta pass it to know what's in it". This a federal bill that applies to all states and did not have to take space for each state. Trust me this will be hell on earth for all of us - us in the medical field see the train coming and there is not much we can do about it. Ultimately it may come down to passive resistance by nurses and doctors. 2014 is the year when medical care will change forever. In 2015 let me know if its for the greater good or for the elitists who want to be our puppet masters .

Jade, when you buy insurance, you are basically putting your money into a pool shared with other insureds, some of whom are old and sick, some of whom are young and sick, some of whom are healthy. Yes, hospitals have to take in anyone who comes to the emergency room but they get treated and released and there is no followup care unless they have insurance. As for being able to buy insurance yourself, that's not a solid given. Many people who are uninsured now had insurance, but lost it due to a catastrophic illness or accident, or lost their job. You never know what is going to happen, so don't think you're exempt from disasters. Your taxes go to the public good, just like mine do (I know I will catch flack for that from Tom and Cathy!) Stay well, Jade. I wish you luck. And by the way I do give to charity but I don't have Romney's millions to give them. We should all be worried about the poor, the sick, and the homeless, and the weakest among us.

Jade: I believe the bulk of the Romney's "charity" is to the Mormon church....which does virtually nothing to help the millions of uninsured/underinsured Americans....there is no way "charity" can solve the problems related to poverty in our nation. And if the government "stopped taking taxes out of your paycheck"....we wouldn't really have a government, would we? I hope you realize all the good services government provides that you help pay for.

Jade, do you have health insurance now?